Transcript: CBC Radio’s As It Happens

By Jen Dodds | March 18th, 2008 | Posted in Media Campaign |

The issue has now reached Canada - CBC Radio interviewed Tomato Lichy for the As It Happens programme, which was broadcast last night. Listen here (for a limited time). Many thanks to Mary Therese Durr for transcribing it below:

Title: A deaf couple in England wants a second deaf child but the government won’t hear of it.

Introduction: Tomato Lichy and his partner, Paula Garfield, are trying for another baby, but trying for this baby has put them in an unusual fight. Both parents were born with congenital deafness. Their first child deaf is deaf and now they want their second child to be deaf as well. Which is a possibility, thanks to modern genetic testing and In Vitro Fertilization (IVF). But their plan has sparked a new debate over embryo selection, one that boils down to whether or not deafness is in fact a disability. In the end the
decision may not be theirs. The new British government bill, scheduled to go through this spring, would block any attempt to use modern medical techniques to ensure a child is deaf.

We reached Tomato Lichy at his home in London England. The voice you will be hearing is that of his interpreter, Rob Troy. Another interpreter, Shelia Gleason, is also helping with the signing.

Interviewer: Mr. Lichy why do you want your child to be deaf?

Mr. Lichy: The possibility has really come about because my partner will possibly have to have IVF. And really it is not a question of wanting the baby to be deaf; it is not the case that we want our baby to be deaf; it is more the case that the deaf embryo that may be rejected for a hearing embryo. So really we kind of feel that it is very important that the government does not continue down this path. Because it is in a sense saying that deaf people are not on equal terms with hearing people. And I think it is going to cause a lot of problems if you look at the family unit with deaf parents and a deaf child, if you know, this embryo is a hearing embryo, or what would be considered a normal embryo, is inserted and birth is given as normal.
Later on we will have to explain to that deaf child that, well, your deaf brother, your sister is hearing. And that is a result, you know, not of natural causes, but actually it is a result of the government deciding that your deaf brother or sister was not an equal, and was therefore got rid of. And the message was, what is that going to do to her very identity? That sibling; that brother, that sister identity. And that confidence, it can be very detrimental.

Interviewer: If you are to have a child through In Vitro Fertilization, are you going to choose to have an embryo planted that you know to be a deaf child?

Mr. Lichy: If the new law is passed, then there won’t be a choice. You know, we intend to have the same rights as hearing people. Hearing people can decide to reject that deaf embryo and can say ‘we would like our child to be hearing’. A deaf person does not have that choice. So therefore we do not have the same rights as hearing people. As a deaf person I can not say ‘I would like to choose that deaf embryo’. It would automatically be taken away from me, that choice. The government has taught very much in this country about human rights, about disability rights, and equality rights, and that process it has been, you know, fantastic over the last through years. There has been a real growth and understanding of the importance of equality within these areas. But actually this new government law seems to be a big step backwards in the very fact that they’ve taken away that process almost. That processes seems to be going through reverse that process seems to be taking away the rights that we have, to have a deaf child.

Interviewer: But if you are able to make that choice among the embryo that are fertilized, will you choice an embryo that you know to be deaf? Is that something that, that is a desire on your part?

Mr. Lichy: I wouldn’t choose to create by making anything at all. It is already there. The most important thing for me and the most important at the moment, seems to be the fact that I want to have the right to have that choice. The same choice that hearing people have. If hearing people, if deaf people have the same rights, that’s fine. It is not actually a question about the choice itself. But if hearing people can have the choice to say ‘I would like a hearing embryo’ I mean a deaf person does not have that choice then therefore there is an inequality there. If none of us have that choice then fine, if we both have that choice then it is also fine. But at the moment what I don’t like, and what I am opposed is that imbalance.

Interviewer: If I understand correctly, the fight you have against this bill, is not necessarily a fight, to be able to have a deaf child. You’re fighting the bill, just simply on the grounds that it’s discriminatory.

Mr. Lichy: Well yeah, I mean I do feel I am being discriminated against. And I think the deaf population and the deaf community is. And I think it is an attack on disabled people. It’s about setting something up for the future. If we are going to make progression, when it comes to equality rights and human rights, it is a very slippery slope, you know, at the moment it will affect a few people, it will affect the deaf community, and pretty much that is about it. But actually it could be a slippery slope and that gap could be widening, umm, to things in the future, which is yet, we don’t know. And that is also a concern that I have, that it will actually lose control. And it is very interesting, who makes these choices? Is it the government? Who in government is making this decision?

Interviewer: But do you want to make that choice for your child? How do you know the child you have will want to be deaf?

Mr. Lichy: It is not about wanting to be deaf , that child is already deaf, he is already there, that will be his identity. You know if I chose a different embryo, for example, you know hearing, that deaf child would never have been born, that person would never have been born. So it is not a case of wanting to be deaf, interesting the government’s language, and say ‘oh it’s better that it be hearing’, but actually what that statement is giving out is that it is better that deaf people weren’t ever born.

Interviewer: The Royal National Institute for Deaf people doesn’t support this idea. They say that if there’s a choice that the choice should be the embryo that doesn’t have the deaf gene, that the embryo that would produce a hearing child is the one that should be implanted and not the one with a gene that might have deafness in it. How do you respond to that?

Mr. Lichy: Well it is very strange because 2 months ago, the RNID announced that deaf person should have the right to choose their baby, and that was only what, 2 months ago now. And that really matched, their goal and their aim to support deaf people and deaf people’s choice. And later, 2 months later, this view seems to have changed.

Interviewer: Both you and your partner are deaf, you have a baby girl who is born deaf, what will you do if this bill passes, will you try for natural child birth and take your chances? Will you go the route, because your partner is over 40 now, you were saying that you may go the route of In Vitro Fertilization, what are your plans, what will you and your partner going to do?

Mr. Lichy: We will continue trying for natural pregnancy. But we really can’t get involved within this process, which involves rejecting a deaf embryo. This is just very wrong, everything within me inherently just says this is wrong. So this is certainly a process I, we just can not be involved in.

Interviewer: Mr. Lichy I want to thank you very much for speaking with us. And I would like to also thank Rob Troy for giving us the answers and a Shelia Gleason, I understand, has been doing the signing.
Thank you very much indeed. OK, bye bye now.

Conclusion: Tomato Lichy is a deaf parent who wants to have a second deaf child with his partner Paula Garfield, he spoke to us through his interpreter Rob Troy from his home in London England.